Poll Of The Month : If they performed equally on the road (and off) and cost the same, would you buy an E-vehicle or one that runs via an internal combustion engine?
Poll Of The Month : If they performed equally on the road (and off) and cost the same, would you buy an E-vehicle or one that runs via an internal combustion engine?
I only buy vehicles when my current set become unusable and financially incapable of repair.
I've never had enough spare money to buy an electric vehicle, they are priced several times as high as my spending cap. my spending cap is usually around a grand, twice in 30 years it's gone as high as 2500 for specialty vehicles.
if I had 5000 to invest in a vehicle I'd get an OLD, pretty or super versatile one, and convert it from ICE to electric myself. then I could choose battery type by use case... gel lead acid for short range in town use, which is most likely, or something higher energy density but more environmentally destructive and higher spontaneous combustion risk for long range.
if I had ten grand to invest I'd get a really pretty one and convert it to electric while tricking out the cockpit and rest of the electrical system to high tech as well, then I'd sell it and repeat the process.
it only takes about 3 grand to convert ICE to electric if you don't have to farm out the labor, use gel lead avoid for storage, and cherry pick parts rather than buying a kit.
What we have learned, with or without consideration of human-caused or not global climate change is that hybrids have always been the way to go since they don't rely solely on gasoline or electricity, regardless of how it might be extraneously generated. Train operators have known about this for many decades.
Most people's science education is so poor that they don't realise that the electricity to charge the battery comes mainly from burning fossil fuels, and the process is even more inefficient than the internal combustion engine. ... and increasingly so as nuclear power stations are destroyed.
Most people buy the carbon dioxide disinformation, and think they are helping by using electric. 🙄
Most people's science educations are so poor that they believe there are still fossil fuels left long after all the dinosaurs have rotted to create the tiny amounts they contributed to the massive mineral oil deposits unlikely to be exhausted in many centuries to come.
Well the fact is that there ARE lots left and still thousands of untapped deposits that we know about- think about the ones we don’t. Finding an alternative is great, and it’s happening, I mean alternatives exist but the truth is kept from us (“free energy”) and used for military applications rather than for us plebs. It’s all a distraction to keep us quibbling with each other. So chill dude. In the meantime while we find other ways that are less harmful for us and more efficient, it’s best to use fossil fuel. Hey, it’s natural!
I was being tongue-in-cheek about “it’s natural”. It’s an invalid argument that people say for everything to justify its use. It was supposed to be funny!
The main reason why I will always choose internal combustion is because of the EMF: there is no protection for the human body from with high voltage (400 bolts running parallel to you at all times)… no thank you.
Next reason is that, even though I live as simply and analog as possible and pay cash 80% of the time, go barefoot except in winter, make whatever I can myself, buy from farms almost EVERYTHING, trade stuff, grow herbs, stay off social media, don’t use plastic, got a non-wifi capable phone, getting landline and hardwired cable internet soon, use old school halogen bulbs or candles (NO LED), have blue blocking screens and glasses, faraday bags, and use VhS and cassette and records in this household still- despite allllllllll of this and loving the earth, I don’t buy into the global warming/ end of earth/ useless eaters SCAM. Carbon dioxide is NOT pollution. Cars have nothing to do with whatever is happening to the environment. But clear-cutting forests, monoculture, worldwide consumerist models and rampant unchecked consumerism, polluting the environment with spent nuclear waste and toxic substances, people acting like they aren’t supposed to be stewards of the land, all of this industrialization for nothing but greed and money, throwing trash in our oceans, chem trails…. ALL OF THAT NEEDS TO STOP and unfortunately probably never will. So i will keep driving my big, black Jeep Commander with my fluffy lambs wool seat covers, thank you very much.
Then the other issues I have with buying new vehicles in general: it creates SO MUCH MORE WASTE. There are millions of decent used vehicles, always buy USED first and maintain them. It’s cheaper than buying new and doesn’t demand use of new resources and create excessive waste. It’s the same for all things- shop at thrift stores and garage sales first before buying something new. It just makes more sense.
As many people have mentioned here, the mining of the precious minerals for these batteries the EVs need is just horrible all around: for the people who do it (including children) and the environment. What a toxic practice. Such a hypocritical thing for all these “i practice yoga and believe in human rights and we are all equal and I stand with [insert en vogue hot political issue of the moment] etc but I still buy shit from countries that use slavery and child labour” yeah ya gotta love those ones. The fact that our supposedly “civilized” western countries even import products made in places like China and saudi Arabia etc. is disgusting… why trade with people who support these things…. Ah that’s right, because our governments are exactly the same and have no issue with taking advantage of the situation ofnit makes or saves them a buck…
There is no perfect solution. If you can walk for certain errands, walk. If you can bike and enjoy that, do it as often as you can. If you can stay off the roads, cheaper and less use of previous resources and gives you exercise and an opportunity to connect with others and the earth. But sometimes we gotta drive. Not everywhere has a wonderful train system that can take you from small town to small town and all around the country. Sometimes the load were picking up is too heavy for anything except a vehicle. Or there are passengers, distances to cover, time constraints, different abilities, etc. So do what you can, however small. And don’t buy into this EV nonsense!!!!!!!!!!!
I appreciate the detailed and passionate response.
Have you heard of a book called "Bright Green Lies : How The Environmental Movement Lost It's Way and What We Can Do About It" ( 2021) by Derrick Jensen, Lierre Keith and Max Wilbert ?
I have not heard of it, I usually hear about great books or pieces to read through people like you who are incredibly knowledgeable and dedicated to learning about something. At thrift I pick up a few interesting things that I see but I’ll look for this one.
The book represents a perspective on the extreme end of the spectrum of prioritizing conservation of intact ecosystems.
The authors of the book consider themselves to be what they call “Deep Green Environmentalists” and they make some very solid points about the fallacies of the so called “sustainable” “alternative energy technologies” (such as wind and solar/battery tech) however they also express other views I do not share (related to the whole "global warming" / "carbon is a big bad guy" narrative). Despite this, I still think their book is worth a read (even if it is only for the way they expose the EV, solar, wind, Big AG and logging industries true nature).
The cost of human (childrens') lives associated with mining the cobalt necessary to manufacture lithium batteries alone should be a deterrent to buying an EV. When one explores beyond what really goes into charging an EV, the cost of replacing a battery, the associated fire dangers, and disposing of said batteries, the weight of EVs and their adverse impact on roads (infrastructure), then EVs make zero sense. They more adversely impact our environment than they supposedly help to save it.
Now, let's talk about the huge fiberglass windmills, the non-degradebale blade grave yards they leave behind; the birds they kill; the plastics that pollute our earth; geoengineering - spraying the skies to dim the sun and/or to "seed" the clouds; the excessive use of pesticides - glyphosate to dry the crops before harvest that end up in our food supply; seed oils processed with poisons and sold as heart healthy; industrial wastes deliberately added to drinking water (fluoride), polluting pharmaceuticals, etc., etc.
The supposed climate change is just that - manufactured. Executives flying in on their private jets telling us climate change is our fault and we have to reduce our carbon footprint - they don't; the oceans are rising, but they buy waterfront properties... The least of our problems is climate change (the earth has been evolving and changing for millions of years) - IMO, the bottom line is that in the face of the deliberate poisoning and pollution that are really at the forefront of the most serious issues we face, fossil fueled cars are the least of our problems.
Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed comment Remi.
Yes I agree, I own a copy of Cobalt Red: How the Blood of the Congo Powers Our Lives (by Siddharth Kara) so I know what you are talking about and I agree that alone should be enough to raise serious ethical concerns regarding the current E-vehicle tech. Here in Canada the cobalt mines they intend to build up north may provide their workers with more protective gear and a minimum wage but the ancient Boreal Forest and her inhabitants will still pay the toll of mass devastation. Also, lithium and cobalt mining is notorious for causing water table contamination and that means Lake Superior (and by extension all other great lakes) will be impacted.
Yes those wind turbines are all over the place here in southern Ontario and I have seen the blade graveyards being tended by the huge bulldozers attempting to cover up the fallacy that those types of technologies represent. They could build the turbines using different materials and I have seen some interesting designs for home scale units that integrate biomimicry for increasing efficiency and use recyclable metals, but those designs are not mainstream and they are currently very expensive as well.
The geoengineering is a serious issue and I am glad you brought it up. It is something I intend to offer some decentralized solutions for this winter (with regards to phytoremediation and mycoremediation of contaminated soil) and heavy metal detox with regards to diet. You are already incorporating one of the things in your diet that is very helpful for detoxing metal nano-particles (such as aluminum, barium and strontium) which is fermented vegetables. :)
I agree that the climate is being changed (and intentionally) then there are also larger cycles of the sun worth considering (which are rarely accounted for and/or basically dismissed with any of the "global warming" or conventional "climate change" models).
Fossil fuel cars do pose detrimental impacts to human health (especially in big cities where PM 2.5 concentrations in the air reach staggering levels) and of course the petroleum extraction (and associated manufactured wars for oil) has it's own set of detriments as well (both for humans and the ecology of the living Earth) but that does not mean that lithium/cobalt tech is any better. IMO, both technologies would have us trading human blood for raw materials ripped and pulled from the living Earth and both involve widespread ecological devastation.
For me personally, I would rather have intact forests, lakes, rivers, mountains and oceans over having a new car (if I have to choose between the two). Thus, until a better option comes along, I will not be buying any new vehicles (gas nor lithium powered) and will just keep repairing the petroleum powered vehicle and use that when a vehicle is required for my day job. That does still mean funding big oil, and I do not like it, but if I did not do that I could not pay the bills and would have to live in a tent/off grid shack in the forest (which I may be okay with, but my wife would not be). Maybe some day, once we get a bigger property and can be fully self-sufficient, i`ll boycott all the energy corporations and plutocrats, go full luddite and my wife can teach me how to ride a horse to get into town when I need to, but for now I will avoid directly funding the ecological devastation of the lithium mining industry and keep using oil (which does present it's own set of ethical concerns as far as I am concerned, but not as many).
I would not buy an electric vehicle. To make the battery is a toxic exposure for people working with them, leading to a known shortened life. They are toxic to our environment, costly and a means of recycling has not been developed. They have means to shut your vehicle down if say, your social credit score is not in alignment with the evil ones trying to gain control of the world. In short they are an evil programmable smart city vehicle.
They are about to built a lithium battery factory near where we live and I also have concerns about toxic exposure (and not just for humans, but rather for all the wildlife near by, such as it is in our "developed" area, and also for the waterways nearby).
Do you have any links to data on the toxic exposure for people working with them (in a factory setting) ?
While many talk a big game with regards to recycling lithium (and my understanding is that it is technologically possible do a degree) I do not think people will care about any potential government punitive measures (fines etc) that may or may not be put in place to encourage people to recycle the batteries as people will always find a loophole/work around if mining and creating new ones is cheaper/more profitable. Incentivizing battery recycling with significant government subsidized pay outs for handing in old batteries might work on a consumer level, but our governments are corrupt and I doubt they would do something like that as it would cut into their profit margins as well.
Yes considering the potential of the so called "smart" aspects that are increasingly intrinsic in existing e-vehicles on the market and it enabling wireless shut down (and/or even potentially remote driving control) is wise.
The digital gulag is indeed coming (if we allow the creeping totalitarian tip toe to continue it's steady march into our lives and our communities).
I admire her courage and intent to empower people through working with what she knows best (the world of money) but my approach to resilience is a little more grass roots and back to basics than hers.
One of the most powerful ways each of us can cripple the efforts of the megalomaniacal plutocrats attempting to exert total control over our lives is to take decisive action to grow some of our own food at home (or via a community garden: https://www.corbettreport.com/solutionswatch-communitygardens/ ).
When we reclaim our food sovereignty (as individuals and communities) we become immune to the coercion tactics of the intended social credit CBDC digital slavery system (which will threaten to shut off your bank account and not allow you to buy food if you disobey).
This is an essential step towards severing our ties from the control grid and beginning to chart a path towards a more honest, equitable and abundant future.
Yes, yes I would and apparently I'm the only one. The human ace must look to the future, and the "electric" car is a stepping stone more advanced forms of transportation. Hell, if I had the money today - I'd get one tomorrow.
Hi Kenneth, thanks for taking the time to vote in the poll and comment. I especially appreciate you lending your voice to this discussion considering you seem to be part of a tiny minority (in the context of my subscriber list and the majority of those people's attitude towards this particular subject).
What are your thoughts on the ecological impacts of the lithium and cobalt mining industries (which are required to create lithium based batteries to make the current electric vehicles that are on the market function) ?
Are you aware of the situation in the Cobalt mines in the Congo? Also, are you aware of the lithium mines that are planned for places like Thacker Pass and in the Boreal Forests of Ontario and Quebec?
Dec 15, 2023·edited Dec 15, 2023Liked by Gavin Mounsey
Have you seen the electric vehicles spontaneously combusting all by themselves? If this occurs with you inside the car, it traps you inside and YOU DIE. I will ALWAYS choose an OLD shtf gasoline powered vehicle over an electric vehicle.
I have not, but I am glad you (and several other people who commented here) have brought it up. I was more asking the question with regards to considering the ecological implications of what it takes to make both types of technologies go, but considering the likelihood of burning alive using one vs the other also seems like a good idea :)
How about if they fixed all the exploding car human roasting qualities of the E-vehicles, would you reconsider getting one then?
H E double hockey stick, "NO"!!!! I will NEVER choose an electric vehicle over a gasoline powered vehicle. When you take away the subsidies that are given to people to purchase those electronic vehicles, the cost is out of reach for everyone except the wealthy. Here are the ecological implications of electronic vehicles. The Li batteries are toxic to the water and ground. When an electric vehicle spontaneously combusts, it take TENS of thousands of gallons of water to put out that fire,and the smoke from those burning batteries again is TOXIC! Expired Li batteries are piling up in salvage yards, and there is no way to effectively recycle them as of yet. How are electric vehicles charged? Answer, coal fired power plants or diesel generators. Now about internal combustion engines. They and man are not a major cause of carbon emissions. One major volcanic eruption emits MORE carbon in that one eruption than man has caused in ALL of time. The globalists are pushing electric vehicles of all kinds, including electric aircraft that they want us to use instead of gasoline powered vehicles and the aircraft of today. Meanwhile, the globalist elite are driving around in gasoline powered vehicles and the aircraft of today. If they aren't going to use electric vehicles and aircraft, WHY SHOULD WE? The name of the game for the globalists is COMPLETE control by them over 'We the People'. If carbon emissions increase, the fix is to plant more greenery. Plants take in carbon and give the O2 that all carbon based life forms need to breathe. They talk about net zero carbon emissions. Guess what people, humans and animals are CARBON BASED LIFE FORMS! Net zero carbon emissions means the END of carbon based life on earth. What in the H E double hockey sticks are the globalist piles of flaming dog crap preparing mother earth for by looking for net zero carbon emissions? 'NUFF SAID?
Wrong sex. Not your fault dude. My mother named me after the fictional detective named Tracy Steele who was on the radio in the 1950's in Cali.This was the only bike I could afford to purchase. I got it back in 2006, and have been making changes to it since 2008 and still ride it today. When I can't ride on two wheels, I have a trike kit waiting for it in the garage. When that comes to be, it will look like a trike truck. I am a fabricator of sorts.
I wouldn't buy a bomb. Be fun to build one but not for five figures. I wouldn't buy a new petroleum powered vehicle because they're full of electronic shit that I can't fix and half the time neither can they.
Not "buying" the whole electric car push. We researched them for our town's alternative energy advisory committee (I was a member) and there are more downsides than upsides in nearly all cases. I did purchase a gas-electric hybrid (Prius) which I loved (53 mpg!!!), but it had an even shorter lifespan than the miserably short lifespan our research had forecast, so I won't buy another one. Overall, the short lifespan of lithium batteries, and the weight, plus the shortages of materials, just makes this not good tech to base automobiles around.
Do they have any lithium mines near where you currently live?
They are about to set up several north of where we live in Ontario, and when they do, you can say bye bye to the Boreal Forest, as well as the Polar Bears, Cariboo, Lynx, Eagles, Sturgeon and countless other beings that call that place home once they carve into the bones of the Earth to set up their open pit mines.
Thankfully, no lithium mines. There are a few old copper mines from the Colonial Era, as well as a few for quarrying granite, but no coal or other modern "needful" resources in our area. But you're right to be concerned about what lithium mining will do to your pristine wilderness, as well as the conditions the workers will be forced to labor under. Most likely, those jobs will NOT go to locals, but they'll mass-import people from the third world to "take the jobs Canadians don't want" (i.e., egregiously under-pay them). The conditions people work under in the third world to mine lithium and cobalt are truly horrific -- and a lot of them are children.
True, there is an aggressive push for "smart" everything and portraying battery based technologies as more "green" than technologies that burn fuel.
That is a good point, one can stash fuel and use technology off grid (and perhaps maintain/repair it as well) if it runs on an internal combustion engine vs battery tech. Though I suppose if one is looking at this through purely a humanocentric utilitarian lens, one can also stash lithium batteries, and then have something like solar panels, micro hydroelectric generators, wind turbines or thermoelectric generators on a wood furnace, and that would allow autonomy and self-sufficiency for the lifespan of the batteries and battery powered tech. Where as accessing the fuel for internal combustion engines requires the functioning of large processing and distribution infrastructures to continue to be relied upon in order to re-fuel once your basement stash runs out.
That being said, older internal combustion engines are easier to fix with parts that are typically available locally to any industrious and knowledgeable vehicle/generator owner, where as repairing battery based tech can sometimes require computer chips that come from far away places and/or specialized electronic scavenging/ engineer skills to repair.
I see potential practicality issues with both types of technology (even if they are functioning in an ideal way) and I most certainly see ethical and ecological concerns with both of them as well.
I have a small off-grid solar system for emergency power backup. The solar panels work great when the sun shines -- I can keep my fridge cold, plus lights, a single 2-hour movie without the surround-sound system to entertain the family, and run a load of laundry -- but the lithium batteries start to lose power-capacity almost immediately. They are wicked expensive, and by 5 years in, they lose the ability to hold a charge. Lead-acid batteries require a lot more maintenance, but when the current battery goes, I'll be downscaling to lead-acid and use the cost-savings to buy additional batteries for days the sun doesn't shine.
When the sun doesn't shine, its back to oil-lanterns and cribbage... :-)
Gasoline does NOT store well for a generator, not even when you add stuff to make it last longer (you're looking at 3-6 months, max). Kerosene lasts a bit longer, up to a year if properly stored and treated, but most kerosene generators are contractor-grade, not consumer grade, so they are very expensive because they are not mass-produced. Liquid propane will store a lot longer, but in a prolonged grid-down situation, you're probably not going to find someplace to refill your tanks. There are hybrid gasoline-propane generators that you can buy, which are at the moment the best option for a small backup system at "consumer grade" prices, because you can keep several canisters of propane in your shed for when the power goes out, but then once those run out, just keep a few empty 5-gallon gas cans to find a refill.
The big Generac whole-house generators typically run on natural gas, liquid propane or diesel. If you're on "street gas" the gas company has a backup generator that will keep the gas flowing so long as their supply chain isn't also down, but in a major emergency, you may find yourself with no backup fuel. You can buy a "whole house" sized LP gas tank for your back yard. Most of the "McMansions" near where I live have these systems, but they will only run a whole-house system for a day or two (depending on how big a tank you have) before they run out. Diesel will store a bit longer than regular gasoline if you treat it, but not that much longer, and there are some draconian regulations to store an underground tank on your property large enough to run a whole house diesel generator.
I chose neither.
I only buy vehicles when my current set become unusable and financially incapable of repair.
I've never had enough spare money to buy an electric vehicle, they are priced several times as high as my spending cap. my spending cap is usually around a grand, twice in 30 years it's gone as high as 2500 for specialty vehicles.
if I had 5000 to invest in a vehicle I'd get an OLD, pretty or super versatile one, and convert it from ICE to electric myself. then I could choose battery type by use case... gel lead acid for short range in town use, which is most likely, or something higher energy density but more environmentally destructive and higher spontaneous combustion risk for long range.
if I had ten grand to invest I'd get a really pretty one and convert it to electric while tricking out the cockpit and rest of the electrical system to high tech as well, then I'd sell it and repeat the process.
it only takes about 3 grand to convert ICE to electric if you don't have to farm out the labor, use gel lead avoid for storage, and cherry pick parts rather than buying a kit.
The batteries are filthy( mining and production) they are dangerous and expensive to replace and and also pt out incredible EMF radiation.
What we have learned, with or without consideration of human-caused or not global climate change is that hybrids have always been the way to go since they don't rely solely on gasoline or electricity, regardless of how it might be extraneously generated. Train operators have known about this for many decades.
ICE, because they normally have to have a really good reason to explode and burn.
Their batteries almost never do.
Most people's science education is so poor that they don't realise that the electricity to charge the battery comes mainly from burning fossil fuels, and the process is even more inefficient than the internal combustion engine. ... and increasingly so as nuclear power stations are destroyed.
Most people buy the carbon dioxide disinformation, and think they are helping by using electric. 🙄
Most people's science educations are so poor that they believe there are still fossil fuels left long after all the dinosaurs have rotted to create the tiny amounts they contributed to the massive mineral oil deposits unlikely to be exhausted in many centuries to come.
Not sure if you are serious!
Of course the fossil fuels are mainly from vegetation, not animals, from the Carboniferous.
Maybe you should get a degree in petroleum geology.
Indeed! If only I had more time: it would be very interesting.
Well the fact is that there ARE lots left and still thousands of untapped deposits that we know about- think about the ones we don’t. Finding an alternative is great, and it’s happening, I mean alternatives exist but the truth is kept from us (“free energy”) and used for military applications rather than for us plebs. It’s all a distraction to keep us quibbling with each other. So chill dude. In the meantime while we find other ways that are less harmful for us and more efficient, it’s best to use fossil fuel. Hey, it’s natural!
All deposits of petroleum, whether fossil or mineral, are natural.
Only the latter exist in sufficient quantity to be refillable.
I was being tongue-in-cheek about “it’s natural”. It’s an invalid argument that people say for everything to justify its use. It was supposed to be funny!
You should have ended with ":-)" to dispel any pretense of seriousness.
The main reason why I will always choose internal combustion is because of the EMF: there is no protection for the human body from with high voltage (400 bolts running parallel to you at all times)… no thank you.
Next reason is that, even though I live as simply and analog as possible and pay cash 80% of the time, go barefoot except in winter, make whatever I can myself, buy from farms almost EVERYTHING, trade stuff, grow herbs, stay off social media, don’t use plastic, got a non-wifi capable phone, getting landline and hardwired cable internet soon, use old school halogen bulbs or candles (NO LED), have blue blocking screens and glasses, faraday bags, and use VhS and cassette and records in this household still- despite allllllllll of this and loving the earth, I don’t buy into the global warming/ end of earth/ useless eaters SCAM. Carbon dioxide is NOT pollution. Cars have nothing to do with whatever is happening to the environment. But clear-cutting forests, monoculture, worldwide consumerist models and rampant unchecked consumerism, polluting the environment with spent nuclear waste and toxic substances, people acting like they aren’t supposed to be stewards of the land, all of this industrialization for nothing but greed and money, throwing trash in our oceans, chem trails…. ALL OF THAT NEEDS TO STOP and unfortunately probably never will. So i will keep driving my big, black Jeep Commander with my fluffy lambs wool seat covers, thank you very much.
Then the other issues I have with buying new vehicles in general: it creates SO MUCH MORE WASTE. There are millions of decent used vehicles, always buy USED first and maintain them. It’s cheaper than buying new and doesn’t demand use of new resources and create excessive waste. It’s the same for all things- shop at thrift stores and garage sales first before buying something new. It just makes more sense.
As many people have mentioned here, the mining of the precious minerals for these batteries the EVs need is just horrible all around: for the people who do it (including children) and the environment. What a toxic practice. Such a hypocritical thing for all these “i practice yoga and believe in human rights and we are all equal and I stand with [insert en vogue hot political issue of the moment] etc but I still buy shit from countries that use slavery and child labour” yeah ya gotta love those ones. The fact that our supposedly “civilized” western countries even import products made in places like China and saudi Arabia etc. is disgusting… why trade with people who support these things…. Ah that’s right, because our governments are exactly the same and have no issue with taking advantage of the situation ofnit makes or saves them a buck…
There is no perfect solution. If you can walk for certain errands, walk. If you can bike and enjoy that, do it as often as you can. If you can stay off the roads, cheaper and less use of previous resources and gives you exercise and an opportunity to connect with others and the earth. But sometimes we gotta drive. Not everywhere has a wonderful train system that can take you from small town to small town and all around the country. Sometimes the load were picking up is too heavy for anything except a vehicle. Or there are passengers, distances to cover, time constraints, different abilities, etc. So do what you can, however small. And don’t buy into this EV nonsense!!!!!!!!!!!
I appreciate the detailed and passionate response.
Have you heard of a book called "Bright Green Lies : How The Environmental Movement Lost It's Way and What We Can Do About It" ( 2021) by Derrick Jensen, Lierre Keith and Max Wilbert ?
I have not heard of it, I usually hear about great books or pieces to read through people like you who are incredibly knowledgeable and dedicated to learning about something. At thrift I pick up a few interesting things that I see but I’ll look for this one.
Thank you for the kind and generous response.
The book represents a perspective on the extreme end of the spectrum of prioritizing conservation of intact ecosystems.
The authors of the book consider themselves to be what they call “Deep Green Environmentalists” and they make some very solid points about the fallacies of the so called “sustainable” “alternative energy technologies” (such as wind and solar/battery tech) however they also express other views I do not share (related to the whole "global warming" / "carbon is a big bad guy" narrative). Despite this, I still think their book is worth a read (even if it is only for the way they expose the EV, solar, wind, Big AG and logging industries true nature).
Here is a link to where you can read a digital copy of the book for free https://archive.org/details/derrick-jensen-bright-green-lies-monkfish-book-publishing-company-2021
The cost of human (childrens') lives associated with mining the cobalt necessary to manufacture lithium batteries alone should be a deterrent to buying an EV. When one explores beyond what really goes into charging an EV, the cost of replacing a battery, the associated fire dangers, and disposing of said batteries, the weight of EVs and their adverse impact on roads (infrastructure), then EVs make zero sense. They more adversely impact our environment than they supposedly help to save it.
Now, let's talk about the huge fiberglass windmills, the non-degradebale blade grave yards they leave behind; the birds they kill; the plastics that pollute our earth; geoengineering - spraying the skies to dim the sun and/or to "seed" the clouds; the excessive use of pesticides - glyphosate to dry the crops before harvest that end up in our food supply; seed oils processed with poisons and sold as heart healthy; industrial wastes deliberately added to drinking water (fluoride), polluting pharmaceuticals, etc., etc.
The supposed climate change is just that - manufactured. Executives flying in on their private jets telling us climate change is our fault and we have to reduce our carbon footprint - they don't; the oceans are rising, but they buy waterfront properties... The least of our problems is climate change (the earth has been evolving and changing for millions of years) - IMO, the bottom line is that in the face of the deliberate poisoning and pollution that are really at the forefront of the most serious issues we face, fossil fueled cars are the least of our problems.
Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed comment Remi.
Yes I agree, I own a copy of Cobalt Red: How the Blood of the Congo Powers Our Lives (by Siddharth Kara) so I know what you are talking about and I agree that alone should be enough to raise serious ethical concerns regarding the current E-vehicle tech. Here in Canada the cobalt mines they intend to build up north may provide their workers with more protective gear and a minimum wage but the ancient Boreal Forest and her inhabitants will still pay the toll of mass devastation. Also, lithium and cobalt mining is notorious for causing water table contamination and that means Lake Superior (and by extension all other great lakes) will be impacted.
Yes those wind turbines are all over the place here in southern Ontario and I have seen the blade graveyards being tended by the huge bulldozers attempting to cover up the fallacy that those types of technologies represent. They could build the turbines using different materials and I have seen some interesting designs for home scale units that integrate biomimicry for increasing efficiency and use recyclable metals, but those designs are not mainstream and they are currently very expensive as well.
The geoengineering is a serious issue and I am glad you brought it up. It is something I intend to offer some decentralized solutions for this winter (with regards to phytoremediation and mycoremediation of contaminated soil) and heavy metal detox with regards to diet. You are already incorporating one of the things in your diet that is very helpful for detoxing metal nano-particles (such as aluminum, barium and strontium) which is fermented vegetables. :)
I agree that the climate is being changed (and intentionally) then there are also larger cycles of the sun worth considering (which are rarely accounted for and/or basically dismissed with any of the "global warming" or conventional "climate change" models).
Fossil fuel cars do pose detrimental impacts to human health (especially in big cities where PM 2.5 concentrations in the air reach staggering levels) and of course the petroleum extraction (and associated manufactured wars for oil) has it's own set of detriments as well (both for humans and the ecology of the living Earth) but that does not mean that lithium/cobalt tech is any better. IMO, both technologies would have us trading human blood for raw materials ripped and pulled from the living Earth and both involve widespread ecological devastation.
For me personally, I would rather have intact forests, lakes, rivers, mountains and oceans over having a new car (if I have to choose between the two). Thus, until a better option comes along, I will not be buying any new vehicles (gas nor lithium powered) and will just keep repairing the petroleum powered vehicle and use that when a vehicle is required for my day job. That does still mean funding big oil, and I do not like it, but if I did not do that I could not pay the bills and would have to live in a tent/off grid shack in the forest (which I may be okay with, but my wife would not be). Maybe some day, once we get a bigger property and can be fully self-sufficient, i`ll boycott all the energy corporations and plutocrats, go full luddite and my wife can teach me how to ride a horse to get into town when I need to, but for now I will avoid directly funding the ecological devastation of the lithium mining industry and keep using oil (which does present it's own set of ethical concerns as far as I am concerned, but not as many).
Thanks again for the comment.
I would not buy an electric vehicle. To make the battery is a toxic exposure for people working with them, leading to a known shortened life. They are toxic to our environment, costly and a means of recycling has not been developed. They have means to shut your vehicle down if say, your social credit score is not in alignment with the evil ones trying to gain control of the world. In short they are an evil programmable smart city vehicle.
They are about to built a lithium battery factory near where we live and I also have concerns about toxic exposure (and not just for humans, but rather for all the wildlife near by, such as it is in our "developed" area, and also for the waterways nearby).
Do you have any links to data on the toxic exposure for people working with them (in a factory setting) ?
While many talk a big game with regards to recycling lithium (and my understanding is that it is technologically possible do a degree) I do not think people will care about any potential government punitive measures (fines etc) that may or may not be put in place to encourage people to recycle the batteries as people will always find a loophole/work around if mining and creating new ones is cheaper/more profitable. Incentivizing battery recycling with significant government subsidized pay outs for handing in old batteries might work on a consumer level, but our governments are corrupt and I doubt they would do something like that as it would cut into their profit margins as well.
Yes considering the potential of the so called "smart" aspects that are increasingly intrinsic in existing e-vehicles on the market and it enabling wireless shut down (and/or even potentially remote driving control) is wise.
The digital gulag is indeed coming (if we allow the creeping totalitarian tip toe to continue it's steady march into our lives and our communities).
Catherine Austin Fitts describes this situation by advocating that we need to "stop building our own prison". https://rumble.com/v3pp1bj-people-are-financing-their-own-digital-prison.-catherine-austin-fitts-and-a.html
I admire her courage and intent to empower people through working with what she knows best (the world of money) but my approach to resilience is a little more grass roots and back to basics than hers.
One of the most powerful ways each of us can cripple the efforts of the megalomaniacal plutocrats attempting to exert total control over our lives is to take decisive action to grow some of our own food at home (or via a community garden: https://www.corbettreport.com/solutionswatch-communitygardens/ ).
When we reclaim our food sovereignty (as individuals and communities) we become immune to the coercion tactics of the intended social credit CBDC digital slavery system (which will threaten to shut off your bank account and not allow you to buy food if you disobey).
This is an essential step towards severing our ties from the control grid and beginning to chart a path towards a more honest, equitable and abundant future.
Yes, yes I would and apparently I'm the only one. The human ace must look to the future, and the "electric" car is a stepping stone more advanced forms of transportation. Hell, if I had the money today - I'd get one tomorrow.
Hi Kenneth, thanks for taking the time to vote in the poll and comment. I especially appreciate you lending your voice to this discussion considering you seem to be part of a tiny minority (in the context of my subscriber list and the majority of those people's attitude towards this particular subject).
What are your thoughts on the ecological impacts of the lithium and cobalt mining industries (which are required to create lithium based batteries to make the current electric vehicles that are on the market function) ?
Are you aware of the situation in the Cobalt mines in the Congo? Also, are you aware of the lithium mines that are planned for places like Thacker Pass and in the Boreal Forests of Ontario and Quebec?
Thanks again for the comment.
Have you seen the electric vehicles spontaneously combusting all by themselves? If this occurs with you inside the car, it traps you inside and YOU DIE. I will ALWAYS choose an OLD shtf gasoline powered vehicle over an electric vehicle.
I have not, but I am glad you (and several other people who commented here) have brought it up. I was more asking the question with regards to considering the ecological implications of what it takes to make both types of technologies go, but considering the likelihood of burning alive using one vs the other also seems like a good idea :)
How about if they fixed all the exploding car human roasting qualities of the E-vehicles, would you reconsider getting one then?
Thanks for the comment.
H E double hockey stick, "NO"!!!! I will NEVER choose an electric vehicle over a gasoline powered vehicle. When you take away the subsidies that are given to people to purchase those electronic vehicles, the cost is out of reach for everyone except the wealthy. Here are the ecological implications of electronic vehicles. The Li batteries are toxic to the water and ground. When an electric vehicle spontaneously combusts, it take TENS of thousands of gallons of water to put out that fire,and the smoke from those burning batteries again is TOXIC! Expired Li batteries are piling up in salvage yards, and there is no way to effectively recycle them as of yet. How are electric vehicles charged? Answer, coal fired power plants or diesel generators. Now about internal combustion engines. They and man are not a major cause of carbon emissions. One major volcanic eruption emits MORE carbon in that one eruption than man has caused in ALL of time. The globalists are pushing electric vehicles of all kinds, including electric aircraft that they want us to use instead of gasoline powered vehicles and the aircraft of today. Meanwhile, the globalist elite are driving around in gasoline powered vehicles and the aircraft of today. If they aren't going to use electric vehicles and aircraft, WHY SHOULD WE? The name of the game for the globalists is COMPLETE control by them over 'We the People'. If carbon emissions increase, the fix is to plant more greenery. Plants take in carbon and give the O2 that all carbon based life forms need to breathe. They talk about net zero carbon emissions. Guess what people, humans and animals are CARBON BASED LIFE FORMS! Net zero carbon emissions means the END of carbon based life on earth. What in the H E double hockey sticks are the globalist piles of flaming dog crap preparing mother earth for by looking for net zero carbon emissions? 'NUFF SAID?
I want an old standard too. The're more fun to drive and I can change a clutch plate. Don't see many of those, everyone buys automatics.
.....and very few know how to drive a stick now.
All I have right now are motorcycles. An automatic motorcycle is a crime against humanity.
I ride as well. 1997 H-D Sportster which fools people at a distance. It looks like a Street Glide Special.
Cool! Gotta love a girl that rides. I have a 2015 BMW F800GSA and a 1988 R100GS BMW Bumblebee. I like adventure bikes.
Wrong sex. Not your fault dude. My mother named me after the fictional detective named Tracy Steele who was on the radio in the 1950's in Cali.This was the only bike I could afford to purchase. I got it back in 2006, and have been making changes to it since 2008 and still ride it today. When I can't ride on two wheels, I have a trike kit waiting for it in the garage. When that comes to be, it will look like a trike truck. I am a fabricator of sorts.
I wouldn't buy a bomb. Be fun to build one but not for five figures. I wouldn't buy a new petroleum powered vehicle because they're full of electronic shit that I can't fix and half the time neither can they.
I'm in the market for a 2010 Tacoma.
Thanks for sharing your two cents my friend.
"I wouldn't buy a new petroleum powered vehicle because they're full of electronic shit that I can't fix and half the time neither can they."
I share this perspective. Most of the new cars require microchips made in Korea or China to be able to continue functioning.
How about if the E-vehicles were not prone to exploding and they had faraday cages built around the engine / battery compartments?
They probably need similar chips but I'll stick with tried and true tech. Also, those batteries have a lifetime.
Might have a 2009 Tacoma with a brand new frame and no rust. It's an automatic but most of them are. I can overlook that. Tuesday next, we'll see.
Not "buying" the whole electric car push. We researched them for our town's alternative energy advisory committee (I was a member) and there are more downsides than upsides in nearly all cases. I did purchase a gas-electric hybrid (Prius) which I loved (53 mpg!!!), but it had an even shorter lifespan than the miserably short lifespan our research had forecast, so I won't buy another one. Overall, the short lifespan of lithium batteries, and the weight, plus the shortages of materials, just makes this not good tech to base automobiles around.
Thanks for the thoughtful comment.
Do they have any lithium mines near where you currently live?
They are about to set up several north of where we live in Ontario, and when they do, you can say bye bye to the Boreal Forest, as well as the Polar Bears, Cariboo, Lynx, Eagles, Sturgeon and countless other beings that call that place home once they carve into the bones of the Earth to set up their open pit mines.
Thankfully, no lithium mines. There are a few old copper mines from the Colonial Era, as well as a few for quarrying granite, but no coal or other modern "needful" resources in our area. But you're right to be concerned about what lithium mining will do to your pristine wilderness, as well as the conditions the workers will be forced to labor under. Most likely, those jobs will NOT go to locals, but they'll mass-import people from the third world to "take the jobs Canadians don't want" (i.e., egregiously under-pay them). The conditions people work under in the third world to mine lithium and cobalt are truly horrific -- and a lot of them are children.
That and you're sitting on a shitload of EMF radiation. You get enough of that just walking through the park.
the ferocity with which they are pushing an all electric/electronic agenda is easy to see; I can keep a keg of gas in my basement.
True, there is an aggressive push for "smart" everything and portraying battery based technologies as more "green" than technologies that burn fuel.
That is a good point, one can stash fuel and use technology off grid (and perhaps maintain/repair it as well) if it runs on an internal combustion engine vs battery tech. Though I suppose if one is looking at this through purely a humanocentric utilitarian lens, one can also stash lithium batteries, and then have something like solar panels, micro hydroelectric generators, wind turbines or thermoelectric generators on a wood furnace, and that would allow autonomy and self-sufficiency for the lifespan of the batteries and battery powered tech. Where as accessing the fuel for internal combustion engines requires the functioning of large processing and distribution infrastructures to continue to be relied upon in order to re-fuel once your basement stash runs out.
That being said, older internal combustion engines are easier to fix with parts that are typically available locally to any industrious and knowledgeable vehicle/generator owner, where as repairing battery based tech can sometimes require computer chips that come from far away places and/or specialized electronic scavenging/ engineer skills to repair.
I see potential practicality issues with both types of technology (even if they are functioning in an ideal way) and I most certainly see ethical and ecological concerns with both of them as well.
Thanks for the comment.
I have a small off-grid solar system for emergency power backup. The solar panels work great when the sun shines -- I can keep my fridge cold, plus lights, a single 2-hour movie without the surround-sound system to entertain the family, and run a load of laundry -- but the lithium batteries start to lose power-capacity almost immediately. They are wicked expensive, and by 5 years in, they lose the ability to hold a charge. Lead-acid batteries require a lot more maintenance, but when the current battery goes, I'll be downscaling to lead-acid and use the cost-savings to buy additional batteries for days the sun doesn't shine.
When the sun doesn't shine, its back to oil-lanterns and cribbage... :-)
Gasoline does NOT store well for a generator, not even when you add stuff to make it last longer (you're looking at 3-6 months, max). Kerosene lasts a bit longer, up to a year if properly stored and treated, but most kerosene generators are contractor-grade, not consumer grade, so they are very expensive because they are not mass-produced. Liquid propane will store a lot longer, but in a prolonged grid-down situation, you're probably not going to find someplace to refill your tanks. There are hybrid gasoline-propane generators that you can buy, which are at the moment the best option for a small backup system at "consumer grade" prices, because you can keep several canisters of propane in your shed for when the power goes out, but then once those run out, just keep a few empty 5-gallon gas cans to find a refill.
The big Generac whole-house generators typically run on natural gas, liquid propane or diesel. If you're on "street gas" the gas company has a backup generator that will keep the gas flowing so long as their supply chain isn't also down, but in a major emergency, you may find yourself with no backup fuel. You can buy a "whole house" sized LP gas tank for your back yard. Most of the "McMansions" near where I live have these systems, but they will only run a whole-house system for a day or two (depending on how big a tank you have) before they run out. Diesel will store a bit longer than regular gasoline if you treat it, but not that much longer, and there are some draconian regulations to store an underground tank on your property large enough to run a whole house diesel generator.
Heh, I have quite a few gas cans littered about. Fuel stabilizer is your friend.